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Episode: “Daniel Pipes”
Prior to next month's (April) elections in Israel, we are bringing you a special interview with Middle East strategist Daniel Pipes. Dr. Jeffrey Seif had the opportunity to get his insights regarding the situation in Israel, U.S. foreign policy and the public role of Islam in view of events currently in the news.

Caption transcript for “Daniel Pipes”

  • 00:05 male announcer: "Brethren,
  • 00:07 my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
  • 00:12 "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:
  • 00:14 for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that
  • 00:17 call upon him."
  • 00:20 "Zola Levitt Presents."
  • 00:22 ♪♪♪
  • 00:30 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Hearty shalom to you.
  • 00:31 Jeffrey Seif here with a "Zola Levitt Presents" special,
  • 00:37 and this is special.
  • 00:39 Thank you for supporting this ministry.
  • 00:41 It enables us to do things, things like this.
  • 00:45 Friends, we've got a guest, Daniel Pipes, renowned expert.
  • 00:51 "Wall Street Journal" says he's one of the best of the best.
  • 00:54 Ph.D. from Harvard University.
  • 00:56 Pretty smart guy, taught there, Princeton,
  • 00:59 University of Chicago, and elsewhere and now he's gonna be
  • 01:02 teaching us about the Middle East.
  • 01:05 Fasten your seatbelt.
  • 01:07 Let's go on a journey and hear from Dr. Daniel Pipes.
  • 01:13 Jeffrey: Mr. Pipes, I just can't believe
  • 01:14 I'm here talking to you.
  • 01:16 Thank you so much for coming.
  • 01:17 Daniel Pipes: Thank you so much for the invitation.
  • 01:18 Jeffrey: A lot of times when I conversate with people I wanna
  • 01:20 take the lead, but I really prefer deferring to you
  • 01:22 as the expert.
  • 01:24 When we think about this Middle-Eastern quagmire,
  • 01:27 what should we have in mind?
  • 01:30 Daniel: Well, it starts big, doesn't it?
  • 01:33 The Middle East has been, for a century now,
  • 01:37 one of the world's--if not the world's most volatile region.
  • 01:42 I think, ultimately, it has to do with the fact that the Muslim
  • 01:44 population in the Middle East has found it
  • 01:46 very difficult to learn to emulate the West.
  • 01:51 It's in rebellion against modernity and as a result it's
  • 01:54 less democratic and less modern, less technocratic
  • 02:00 than other parts of the world.
  • 02:01 Now, there are exceptions, of course,
  • 02:03 but it leads to this tremendous volatility,
  • 02:06 so you have volatility in terms of wars,
  • 02:09 in terms of jihad and violence, small-scale violence,
  • 02:13 in terms of extremist ideologies.
  • 02:16 In terms of manufacturing it's behind.
  • 02:21 In terms of technology and scholarship it's behind.
  • 02:25 Translations it's behind.
  • 02:27 Jeffrey: What's your understanding--
  • 02:28 Daniel: It's a troubled region, in short.
  • 02:29 Jeffrey: What's your understanding
  • 02:31 of what's behind that?
  • 02:32 Once upon a time, Islamic civilization was
  • 02:33 at the vanguard of arts and sciences, statecraft, warcraft.
  • 02:38 Now it's in the gutter.
  • 02:39 It's in the--and so, there is just this raging.
  • 02:43 Daniel: Right and the fact that the Middle East was
  • 02:45 at the forefront of civilization a thousand years ago
  • 02:48 is part of the problem.
  • 02:50 Or to put it differently, through premodern history,
  • 02:55 from the origins of Islam around 600 until 1800,
  • 03:01 to be a Muslim was to be on a winning team in terms
  • 03:04 of civilization, in terms of military power, and so forth.
  • 03:09 So, if you go back a thousand years to 1019,
  • 03:12 the leading cities of the world were places like Cairo,
  • 03:15 Damascus, and Baghdad.
  • 03:17 Their region went to sleep, was woken up by the European
  • 03:22 invaders around 1800 and has been trying to catch up
  • 03:25 ever since, but, as I said before,
  • 03:27 there is this resistance to learning from Europe.
  • 03:30 Had it been China that created maternity,
  • 03:34 had it been not Christians but Chinese, Confucians, and Daoists
  • 03:38 and so forth, it would have been much easier for the Muslims
  • 03:42 of the Middle East to learn from China.
  • 03:45 There is even a Hadith, a saying, of Muhammad,
  • 03:47 "Seek knowledge unto China."
  • 03:49 Jeffrey: Really?
  • 03:50 Daniel: Yeah, so China would have been much easier,
  • 03:51 but it was Europe and that made it very,
  • 03:54 very difficult because of the age-old struggle between
  • 03:57 Muslims and Christians.
  • 03:58 Jeffrey: Yes, my understanding is it came to a head
  • 04:00 in the Battle of Vienna, 1683 I believe.
  • 04:03 A friend, Carl Raschke, an Islamist out of Harvard told me
  • 04:06 that was when Islam was turned around and has been receding
  • 04:12 ever since, when they lost that.
  • 04:14 Fought on September the 11th.
  • 04:16 Has that ever crossed your desk?
  • 04:18 Daniel: Indeed, it has, but I don't know if I'd put
  • 04:20 that much emphasis on it.
  • 04:21 That was a vanguard position, and it failed.
  • 04:26 I think the more fundamental problems and more fundamental
  • 04:29 losses one could say the Battle of Lepanto in 1570.
  • 04:33 One could point to a whole range of problems,
  • 04:36 but in short the Europeans began to develop modernity around 1500
  • 04:42 and from then until now, the last half millennium roughly,
  • 04:47 has been a time of Western exuberance and power and
  • 04:51 expansion, and the Muslim world has been falling further
  • 04:55 and further behind.
  • 04:56 Jeffrey: Left behind.
  • 04:58 What are your thoughts about this?
  • 04:59 My understanding relative to what you just said
  • 05:00 is that Christian Europe, so-called in so many ways,
  • 05:03 was in the ghetto.
  • 05:05 They go on these crusades, and they go to take back
  • 05:08 the Holy Land from the infidels.
  • 05:10 They run into Muslims.
  • 05:11 The walls are bigger. The domes are bigger.
  • 05:13 There is better engineering. There is better math.
  • 05:15 They discover arts and sciences and my understanding is that
  • 05:18 realizing that Christian civilization had been outpaced
  • 05:22 by Islamic civilization, when they came back to the old world
  • 05:25 after the wars this gave birth to the enlightenment,
  • 05:29 the Renaissance, and this emergence.
  • 05:31 Is that overstated or do you think that's fair?
  • 05:33 Daniel: I would agree with it, but focus more
  • 05:35 on the intellectual side, less, say, the military technology
  • 05:39 or architecture and more of the transmission
  • 05:42 of Greek thought via Arabic.
  • 05:44 Jeffrey: Because they translated it.
  • 05:46 Daniel: They translated it.
  • 05:47 They maintain--they kept alive Greek thinking in a way
  • 05:51 that Europe had lost it, but, actually,
  • 05:53 I find it even more interesting the fact that Europe--
  • 05:56 if you think of Europe, it's surrounded
  • 05:59 by a membrane of Islam, of Muslims, from Morocco
  • 06:02 to the steps of Central Asia.
  • 06:05 It's Muslims everywhere and a large part the voyages
  • 06:09 of discovery, the reason why the Americas were founded,
  • 06:13 were because the Europeans, Portuguese, and Spanish
  • 06:17 in particular wanted to get around the Muslim world
  • 06:21 and find non-Muslims: the Chinese, the Africans,
  • 06:24 Ethiopians especially, Indians.
  • 06:26 So, one of the explorers-- I think it was Vasco da Gama--
  • 06:31 was asked, "What are you searching?"
  • 06:33 And he said, "Christians and spices."
  • 06:35 They were looking for other Christians,
  • 06:37 which they found in Ethiopia, but mostly
  • 06:38 they didn't find Christians.
  • 06:39 They found non-Muslim, non-Christian peoples
  • 06:42 who they then tried to convert to Christianity in Africa,
  • 06:45 India, China, and elsewhere, so getting around the Muslim world
  • 06:49 was very important.
  • 06:51 Jeffrey: I mean, that raises an issue, too.
  • 06:53 We're pivoting away from the Middle East per se,
  • 06:56 but Middle Easterners that make their way around
  • 06:59 the membrane of Europe.
  • 07:00 Now it's not just around.
  • 07:02 It's inculcated into European culture, the--
  • 07:05 it's become--it's ubiquitous, is it not?
  • 07:08 And a real problem for Western civilization.
  • 07:11 What will Britain be in a hundred years and France
  • 07:14 and so forth?
  • 07:15 Any thoughts on that?
  • 07:16 Daniel: Well, there are two schools of thought in this.
  • 07:20 The one that dominates but I don't agree with holds
  • 07:22 that the Muslim influx that began--one can date it
  • 07:27 to 1961 and the German-Turkish work agreement that brought
  • 07:34 Turkish workers to Germany.
  • 07:36 That in the last close to 60 years there has just been
  • 07:42 an increase of Islam, Muslims, mosques,
  • 07:46 and so forth, Sharia, and that's just gonna increase.
  • 07:50 Just, you know, it's--you can extrapolate it out and in terms
  • 07:56 of population and Islamic customs and so forth what you
  • 08:01 see now is less than what you'll see in the future.
  • 08:05 The other school of thought, which I adhere to,
  • 08:09 holds that there is a reaction coming in Europe,
  • 08:13 a powerful reaction against immigration and Islamization,
  • 08:18 and we're just at the beginning of it.
  • 08:19 And even now at the end-- at the beginning of 2019
  • 08:23 you can see that in five countries--namely Poland,
  • 08:27 Czechia, Hungary, Austria, and Italy--the anti-immigration and
  • 08:33 anti-Islamization forces are to one extent or another in power,
  • 08:38 and I believe that in 15 or 20 years at most all of Europe
  • 08:43 basically will be ruled by politicians who are against
  • 08:49 immigration and Islamization.
  • 08:52 And so, I think that you cannot just extrapolate out that in
  • 08:55 fact it's going to go down.
  • 08:57 There is gonna be less of it, and you can already see the
  • 08:59 signs of that, so I think we're at the beginning of a very great
  • 09:02 battle over the future of Europe and more broadly the West.
  • 09:08 Jeffrey: Yeah, and to pivot from that,
  • 09:10 assuming I understand correctly then, European powers are gonna
  • 09:13 feel the need to stave off this assault in various ways.
  • 09:16 How do they, then, criticize Israel for wanting to do
  • 09:19 much the same?
  • 09:21 Israel being right in the throes of--
  • 09:25 Daniel: Generally speaking, the anti-immigration forces,
  • 09:27 what I call civilizationist parties--civilizationist because
  • 09:30 they're focused on maintaining Western civilization.
  • 09:34 They're very friendly to Israel.
  • 09:35 Now, there are problems and exceptions.
  • 09:37 For example, recently the fight between Poland and Israel,
  • 09:41 but I don't see those as serious.
  • 09:43 Basically, the civilizationists see themselves in the same boat
  • 09:47 as Israel and are pro-Israel.
  • 09:51 announcer: Our resource this week,
  • 09:53 the Grafted-In Package, which includes the series
  • 09:57 "Called Together" on two DVDs, a Grafted In necklace,
  • 10:01 two Stand with Israel koozies, a Grafted In decal,
  • 10:06 a Grafted In pen, our Things to Come bookmark,
  • 10:10 and The Prophesied Messiah bookmark.
  • 10:14 Contact us and ask for the Grafted-In Package
  • 10:18 and thank you for your support.
  • 10:23 female announcer: For many, a trip to the Holy Land
  • 10:25 is the dream of a lifetime.
  • 10:27 The Bible truly comes alive as you see the sites where so many
  • 10:31 biblical events happened, where the teaching is always
  • 10:34 from a messianic perspective.
  • 10:37 Come on a Zola tour in the spring to see Israel and Petra,
  • 10:40 or in the fall to add a cruise to Greece and Ephesus.
  • 10:44 See the land of the Bible for yourself.
  • 10:47 Contact us to reserve your dream of a lifetime.
  • 10:53 Jeffrey: Kirsten and David Hart do this a lot better
  • 10:56 than me, extolling the virtues of a trip to Israel.
  • 10:58 You'll see 'em there, but we had to do this program on the quick,
  • 11:02 so you're stuck with me.
  • 11:04 I wanna thank you for going to Israel,
  • 11:06 because Israel needs the help and the blessing,
  • 11:09 and I know you're blessed, too, and we're blessed to bless
  • 11:12 those of you that can't go.
  • 11:13 And Dr. Daniel Pipes is, in effect,
  • 11:15 our tour guide on this program.
  • 11:17 He's not really a tour guide, but he's an expert taking you
  • 11:20 to the Middle East.
  • 11:22 And off we go now to hear from Dr. Daniel Pipes.
  • 11:28 Jeffrey: England, the population there,
  • 11:30 the number of major cities with Muslim mayors--
  • 11:33 not that I would have a problem with that necessarily,
  • 11:36 but it's been said that Islam will do through the womb
  • 11:38 what it couldn't do with a sword.
  • 11:39 That is, just take over democracies just
  • 11:41 by population growth.
  • 11:43 Is this going to spur this needing to push back?
  • 11:45 Daniel: It's three sources.
  • 11:47 It's immigration, it's the birth of the children in the country,
  • 11:52 and it's conversions.
  • 11:54 All three.
  • 11:56 Yes, I do think it is going to lead to a reaction against,
  • 12:00 though UK is the one exception so far.
  • 12:04 Basically, everywhere in Europe and certainly
  • 12:07 the major countries you see civilizationist parties
  • 12:10 on the move.
  • 12:13 Spain is the most recent one to get a party of this description.
  • 12:17 UK is the one country that really doesn't have one yet.
  • 12:21 Maybe UK, maybe for Britain, but at this point
  • 12:24 it doesn't have one.
  • 12:26 I don't know if one is coming or it's the exception.
  • 12:29 Jeffrey: Well, in light of exigent circumstances
  • 12:31 and pending distresses, cultures need to decide.
  • 12:34 Civilization states need to decide what they need to do.
  • 12:36 What about Israel now?
  • 12:38 We're thrown up against an election?
  • 12:40 What do you see the cards at play there and any sense
  • 12:42 of an outcome?
  • 12:45 Daniel: Well, conventional wisdom,
  • 12:46 which I adhere to here, holds that the right will defeat
  • 12:49 the left by a small amount, but sufficient to
  • 12:52 form a government again.
  • 12:54 There's been a lot of developments within parties
  • 12:58 and parties working together, but the polls,
  • 13:02 which are not entirely reliable, suggest that the right
  • 13:05 will be back.
  • 13:06 Netanyahu will soon be the longest serving ever
  • 13:09 prime minister of Israel.
  • 13:11 Jeffrey: His fifth or sixth?
  • 13:12 Daniel: This will be his fifth.
  • 13:17 One being the '90s and then 3 since 2009, but he's close.
  • 13:23 The predictions are something like 62 to 58,
  • 13:27 counting the Arab parties on the 58 side, so it's close.
  • 13:32 It could go either way.
  • 13:34 Jeffrey: In so many ways, that you as an individual,
  • 13:37 it seems to me, have done more than most as an apologist,
  • 13:41 as a strategist.
  • 13:43 We live in a world today where Israel is just maligned
  • 13:47 in the college campuses, in the press, and you're one
  • 13:51 of those kinda like John the Baptist voices.
  • 13:54 I hate to put you in a Christian--in the New Testament.
  • 13:56 You don't necessarily walk there comfortably,
  • 13:58 but you are that lone voice out there trying to cast a vision.
  • 14:03 What do you wanna tell our viewers?
  • 14:06 Daniel: Well, I'm hardly alone.
  • 14:07 There are plenty who are sympathetic--
  • 14:09 Jeffrey: That's right. You're not the only one.
  • 14:11 Daniel: But I am unusual in that I have a Ph.D.
  • 14:13 in Middle Eastern studies.
  • 14:17 In those circles it's pretty-- if not unique,
  • 14:20 it's unusual, so to be a specialist--
  • 14:23 I'm not a specialist on Israel.
  • 14:24 I'm a specialist on the Muslim world.
  • 14:28 From that kind of background it's unusual, yes.
  • 14:31 Jeffrey: Is it the money that pushes
  • 14:32 the universities to be so--
  • 14:34 Daniel: No, no, the money increases the reach
  • 14:38 of the universities, but it doesn't buy the universities.
  • 14:42 I don't think you could be bought,
  • 14:44 I don't think I can be bought, and they can't be bought.
  • 14:48 They have their views, and people with money come
  • 14:49 and give them more to expound their views.
  • 14:53 No, it's a big question.
  • 14:57 Basically, the university was overtaken 50 years ago
  • 15:00 by the left.
  • 15:02 It was my generation.
  • 15:04 I was in school then.
  • 15:05 It will be 50 years and 6 weeks since the administrative
  • 15:10 building was taken over and the students were pushed out
  • 15:13 by the police and the whole catharsis took place.
  • 15:16 And that, I think, was the fundamental change and the left
  • 15:19 took over the university and with the university came all the
  • 15:23 other institutions of American life that have been taken over.
  • 15:27 Jeffrey: It's been said that change is life's only constant
  • 15:28 and certainly the American university.
  • 15:30 We're talking about changes in Europe.
  • 15:32 When you look into the future, what do you see for Israel?
  • 15:35 Israel has got a lot of pressures roundabout
  • 15:36 and internal.
  • 15:38 Is this culture gonna stand pretty much the way it is?
  • 15:41 What are your thoughts and what can individuals do?
  • 15:44 Daniel: Well, Israel is vibrant and remarkable.
  • 15:48 Perhaps the single most extraordinary thing
  • 15:50 about Israel is that the Jewish population of Israel,
  • 15:53 which is 80% of the country, has a fertility rate
  • 15:57 that's going up.
  • 16:00 Unheard of.
  • 16:02 No other place on Earth where modern people
  • 16:04 are having more babies.
  • 16:06 Other developments are also remarkable, such as water.
  • 16:11 Israel is the superpower of water.
  • 16:13 Water is increasingly a problem as the world's population
  • 16:16 gets larger.
  • 16:19 Israel is a place where hi-tech is astonishing,
  • 16:25 it's a place where the arts are flourishing,
  • 16:29 it's got a vibrant democracy, so it's doing well,
  • 16:33 and it's powerful military.
  • 16:35 I don't worry about Israel.
  • 16:37 The only possible problem would be weapons of mass destruction,
  • 16:43 in particular, from Iran, but also possibly from other
  • 16:46 sources, but at the moment that doesn't seem to be that much
  • 16:52 of a danger and, otherwise, it has in general
  • 16:56 the problems of success.
  • 16:59 Most of--for example, most of Israeli exports
  • 17:03 are business-to-business exports.
  • 17:05 They go into your Apple phone, not--they're not apples that
  • 17:09 you eat, in other words, so you can't really boycott Israel.
  • 17:13 Jeffrey: Yeah, I've heard it said,
  • 17:14 "By all means boycott Israel.
  • 17:16 Do it."
  • 17:17 Then they'd have to throw away their iPhones.
  • 17:18 Good luck.
  • 17:20 Daniel: Exactly, exactly, but, you know, you go to
  • 17:22 your grocery store, and it can boycott Israeli fruit,
  • 17:24 but that's really not the key.
  • 17:27 The key is the hi-tech components of your electronics
  • 17:30 and other products.
  • 17:33 Jeffrey: So, you're-- if I understand you correctly,
  • 17:35 and I don't wanna assume anything,
  • 17:37 you're reasonably optimistic.
  • 17:39 You know, [speaking in Hebrew]
  • 17:40 The people of Israel live. It's strong.
  • 17:42 It's going to stave off the impending darkness.
  • 17:45 Daniel: The past 20 years have been remarkable for Israel.
  • 17:48 Were we talking in 1999, I would have not been optimistic.
  • 17:51 The spirit of Israel was rather broken then in terms of dealing
  • 17:54 with the Palestinians and Arabs.
  • 17:57 It was--the birth rate was going down.
  • 18:01 The water problem was getting--was exacerbating.
  • 18:04 It looked like problems and problems.
  • 18:06 Now it looks good.
  • 18:08 Jeffrey: It looks like the water is rising.
  • 18:09 I hear about the Sea of Galilee and that means the Jordan
  • 18:11 and the Dead Sea.
  • 18:12 It sounds like there is some water coming down from there.
  • 18:14 Daniel: Well, part it's more rain,
  • 18:16 but it's also getting more skilled at, one,
  • 18:18 creating water, desalinization, and two,
  • 18:22 the ability to save water and conserve water and
  • 18:26 recycle water, and they're world leaders in all these methods.
  • 18:32 Jeffrey: So, Israel is quite the leader in that part
  • 18:35 of the world, the only democracy to speak of,
  • 18:38 a vibrant economy, the--at the vanguard arts and sciences,
  • 18:45 the number of PhDs, MAs, bachelors in the workplace.
  • 18:49 There is--got so much going for it.
  • 18:51 What do people need to know that are,
  • 18:54 kind of, on the fence?
  • 18:55 They hear bad things about Israel.
  • 18:57 They hear good things about Israel.
  • 18:59 I mean, what do you wanna tell the world
  • 19:02 if I wasn't interrupting you?
  • 19:03 Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people watch
  • 19:05 television, religious people for the most part,
  • 19:08 in our case, but not exclusively.
  • 19:10 What do you wanna tell 'em about the Middle East,
  • 19:12 about Islam, about Israel?
  • 19:14 Daniel: Well, as we discussed before, the Muslim world
  • 19:18 is going through a very difficult period,
  • 19:22 is full of resentments and envies, self-doubts.
  • 19:29 This plays out not just vis-à-vis Israel,
  • 19:31 but particularly vis-à-vis Israel.
  • 19:36 I'm sympathetic.
  • 19:37 I wish the Muslim world well.
  • 19:39 I do what I can to help in small ways in terms
  • 19:43 of understanding it, in terms of having ideas for it,
  • 19:46 but it is going through a very difficult period,
  • 19:50 difficult in everything from water,
  • 19:52 which we just talked about.
  • 19:54 I mean, their sources of water are drying up
  • 19:56 all over the Middle East, to focus on that region,
  • 20:00 to political instability, to war, to anarchy,
  • 20:04 tremendously problematic.
  • 20:06 Other than a couple of small states in the Persian Gulf,
  • 20:12 like the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain,
  • 20:17 one just sees trouble everywhere, greater trouble.
  • 20:19 And Tunisia is also not doing too badly,
  • 20:21 but otherwise it's everywhere trouble, trouble,
  • 20:25 and so Israel is having to cope with these peoples
  • 20:30 and states that are in trouble.
  • 20:32 And, historically, the states used Israel as a diversion
  • 20:39 to mobilize and distract their people,
  • 20:41 but that ended long ago.
  • 20:44 That was in the '40s, '50s, '60s.
  • 20:46 The states have not been doing that in the last
  • 20:49 almost half century.
  • 20:51 They would rather get out of it, as we can see,
  • 20:53 for example, Saudi Arabia.
  • 20:55 They're not interested in making war with Israel.
  • 20:57 They're interested in getting out of this,
  • 20:59 so that's one good sign.
  • 21:00 Another good sign is that the Islamist surge,
  • 21:03 the surge of radical Islam, I think has kinda peaked
  • 21:07 and going down, so lots of problems, huge problems,
  • 21:13 but some wisps of good news on the horizon.
  • 21:17 Jeffrey: And that's a good report,
  • 21:19 and I've understood, as well, and correct me,
  • 21:21 that nationalism can provide a certain amount of energy,
  • 21:24 but religion can provide even more.
  • 21:27 And it's one thing to fight, you know,
  • 21:29 the Israelis because we're proud Egyptians.
  • 21:31 It's another to think that there are 70-plus virgins on
  • 21:33 the other side of the grave if you put a belt around you,
  • 21:36 and that evokes energies that wouldn't otherwise be there,
  • 21:39 and no state can marshal those enthusiasms, correct?
  • 21:42 Daniel: Yes, there was a nationalist period,
  • 21:44 a pan-Arab period, again, '40s, '50s, '60s.
  • 21:47 That died and in its place came an Islamic fervor,
  • 21:51 but I'm suggesting that that's in the process of dying,
  • 21:54 as well.
  • 21:56 What comes next? I have no idea.
  • 21:57 Jeffrey: Okay, but it seems to me that--on the whole,
  • 22:00 if I understand correctly, you sit reasonably secure.
  • 22:04 People worry about Israel.
  • 22:05 If I understand you correctly, you think that Netanyahu's
  • 22:09 government is gonna prevail.
  • 22:11 Israel is not going away as a nation state.
  • 22:13 People worry about the raging roundabout Israel,
  • 22:16 but the state is gonna live, and the people are gonna live in it,
  • 22:20 and you are reasonably confident, correct?
  • 22:22 Daniel: Yeah, there is a sense of determination.
  • 22:25 I think it's symbolized by the birthrate that's going up.
  • 22:28 There is a power that's symbolized by the IDF,
  • 22:33 the Israel Defense Forces, and there is a place in the world
  • 22:37 that's symbolized, for example, by the new ties between
  • 22:41 India and Israel.
  • 22:43 So, yes, the left has turned against Israel.
  • 22:45 The left which historically, back in the '40s, '50s, '60s,
  • 22:48 was the ardent supporter of Israel has turned away
  • 22:53 from it, sees it as a colonial state,
  • 22:55 apartheid state, and so forth.
  • 22:59 That's getting worse all the time.
  • 23:01 Leftist attitudes towards Israel exacerbating.
  • 23:04 On the other hand, the Muslim world is not so hostile
  • 23:09 overall as it used to be.
  • 23:11 There are breaks, there are fractures in the Muslim approach
  • 23:14 to Israel, so it's an ongoing story.
  • 23:16 As you say, change is-- doesn't ever stop.
  • 23:18 Jeffrey: Is this correct relative to Islamic views,
  • 23:22 if you can generalize, toward Israel?
  • 23:23 My understanding is, the further away you get
  • 23:25 from the Middle East, the less hostile it becomes.
  • 23:27 And I could be wrong, 'cause you're the expert,
  • 23:30 not me, but certainly the energies roundabout.
  • 23:33 Most people think all Muslims are Arabs.
  • 23:35 No, there is certain percentages more and there is plenty
  • 23:37 in Indonesia, as well.
  • 23:39 Is that correct?
  • 23:40 Daniel: Actually, I once wrote an article
  • 23:42 making the opposite point.
  • 23:43 That in the Middle East, where people actually have to deal
  • 23:46 with Israel, there is a complex set of relations.
  • 23:50 Where if you're here in Texas, Israel is far away,
  • 23:53 and you can just have a very simple one-dimensional view,
  • 23:57 and so it's more sophisticated and complex in the Middle East
  • 24:02 than it is in Japan, in South Africa, or in Colombia.
  • 24:06 Jeffrey: Got you. I certainly can stand corrected.
  • 24:08 And listen, my stock has risen in the world in my friends' eyes
  • 24:12 just 'cause I get to sit down and talk to you.
  • 24:14 It has really been a pleasure, Dr. Pipes.
  • 24:16 Thank you very much.
  • 24:18 Daniel: Thank you for the most interesting conversation.
  • 24:22 Jeffrey: I'll tell you straight up.
  • 24:23 When it comes to television there is a lot of ego
  • 24:26 and a lot of guys just wanna tell their story,
  • 24:29 and I don't know.
  • 24:31 I'm not devoid of ego, but at 63 one of the benefits is you
  • 24:35 realize there is a world beyond you and there are people a whole
  • 24:39 lot smarter than you, and Daniel Pipes is one such person.
  • 24:43 He's a strategist. He's an analyst.
  • 24:46 I work a little more with biblical perspective,
  • 24:49 and I'm not casting aspersions on him in saying that,
  • 24:52 because he's not here to defend himself.
  • 24:54 I'm more of a Bible student than I am a Harvard-trained expert
  • 25:00 in the Middle East, and I look at the Bible,
  • 25:04 and I refract things through the prism
  • 25:06 of a biblical understanding.
  • 25:08 And what a world it is and at "Zola Levitt Presents,"
  • 25:11 by the way, that you support, that we're your Daniel Pipes.
  • 25:16 We get to pipe in every now and again and look at what the Bible
  • 25:19 says on one hand and the newspaper on the other
  • 25:22 and see how it might fit together.
  • 25:24 Speaking of which, here is an opinion piece that came
  • 25:27 from the international, "Jerusalem Post".
  • 25:30 Interestingly, it's written by an Islamic imam
  • 25:34 who's talking about--
  • 25:36 the question, is Israel a sacred Islamic city?
  • 25:39 He plays it down interestingly and gives voice to the fact
  • 25:43 that there isn't a lot of early history where Jerusalem factored
  • 25:47 center stage in Islamic thinking.
  • 25:51 You might wanna get this article.
  • 25:52 Is Jerusalem a sacred Islamic city?
  • 25:55 The answer is no in this set of information.
  • 25:59 Is Jerusalem a sacred city? The answer is yes right here.
  • 26:05 Speaking of here, thank you for being here with us.
  • 26:08 We love you and appreciate your support for,
  • 26:11 "Zola Levitt Presents."
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  • 26:32 announcer: From the beginning,
  • 26:34 our Creator revealed his will to the common man.
  • 26:38 Individuals listened to his call and responded in obedience.
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  • 26:48 in Messiah himself, the Lord faithfully intervenes
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  • 27:05 Jeffrey: You just saw some great pictures.
  • 27:08 Oh, I'm so excited to bring you that series,
  • 27:10 "Divine Deliverance," but that's next week.
  • 27:13 And as you go now, [speaking in Hebrew]
  • 27:17 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
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