The Jewish roots of Christianity

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Bible teaching with an emphasis on Israel, prophecy and the Jewish roots of Christianity

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Episode: “Jeremiah in Retrospect”
This final program in our series features an interview with author and radio host Dr. Michael Brown. From the studio, Dr. Seif discusses the applications and takeaways from the life and writings of Jeremiah with David and Kirsten Hart.
Series: “Jeremiah”
Hope over the horizon
Known as the weeping prophet, Jeremiah received the assignment of warning his countrymen of the coming judgment and deportation at the hands of the Babylonians. A message of hope and deliverance is woven through Jeremiah’s writings.

Caption transcript for Jeremiah: “Jeremiah in Retrospect” (9/9)

  • 00:01 David Hart: On today's program, we hear more from Dr. Jeffrey Seif and Dr. Michael Brown, as we look for modern
  • 00:09 applications from the book of Jeremiah, coming up next on "Our Jewish Roots."
  • 00:14 ♪♪♪
  • 00:19 male announcer: In the 6th century BC,
  • 00:22 one man stood alone against the pervading wickedness of God's
  • 00:25 people in the land of Judah.
  • 00:28 The prophet Jeremiah was chosen by the Lord to warn of pending
  • 00:33 judgment that would come at the hands of the Babylonians.
  • 00:37 Visions of an exile left him heartbroken and in tears.
  • 00:42 But Jeremiah remained faithful to his calling and recorded a
  • 00:46 message that would speak to generations yet to come.
  • 00:51 Standing tall with faith in God, he understood better days were
  • 00:56 coming, and there was "Hope Over the Horizon."
  • 01:02 ♪♪♪
  • 01:05 David: Thank you so much for joining us today.
  • 01:07 I am David Hart.
  • 01:08 Kirsten Hart: I'm Kirsten Hart.
  • 01:09 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: And I am Jeffrey Seif.
  • 01:11 David: And it's been such a great series all about Jeremiah.
  • 01:13 Your teaching always amazing.
  • 01:16 We love being at this desk with you all the time.
  • 01:18 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Well, you're kind.
  • 01:20 David: Dr. Michael Brown, we really enjoyed him, too.
  • 01:22 So, you guys have known each other for a while.
  • 01:24 Tell us about your relationship with him.
  • 01:26 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yeah, we had a sit-down,
  • 01:28 and I was just glad to have him participating in the series,
  • 01:31 but he and I worked for the same Bible college on different
  • 01:37 campuses, and we have that professional association.
  • 01:40 My first memory of him goes back to sitting down with him,
  • 01:44 and he had a Hebrew Bible and wanted to fellowship
  • 01:48 with me in the Bible.
  • 01:49 Now, I mean, I don't hold a candle to him with the language.
  • 01:54 And, you know, I can make my way with the language;
  • 01:57 but, you know, I'm just minor league.
  • 02:00 He's major league and an all-star at that, really.
  • 02:02 He's really one of the best of the best,
  • 02:05 and I've known him for decades, and I'm working with him now
  • 02:10 beyond the television series.
  • 02:12 Zondervan, a major publisher, Christian publisher,
  • 02:17 and a Bible publisher, is doing a study Bible that he's the
  • 02:20 General Editor of, and I'm working on three
  • 02:24 books for that, so--
  • 02:25 Kirsten: And we get--I like something extra.
  • 02:28 I like a bonus.
  • 02:29 This is our bonus program for Jeremiah,
  • 02:32 especially interviews that you had with Dr. Brown.
  • 02:35 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yeah, and he wrote a significant
  • 02:37 commentary on Jeremiah.
  • 02:38 I didn't know that when I pitched to him,
  • 02:40 "Hey, Mike, do you want to come and help?"
  • 02:43 "And, oh, by the way, yes."
  • 02:44 And then bingo, I hit paydirt on the quick.
  • 02:47 Kirsten: All right, that's coming up, isn't it?
  • 02:48 David: It is. Kirsten: Like right now.
  • 02:50 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes, so without further ado,
  • 02:53 off we go to Dr. Michael Brown.
  • 02:55 ♪♪♪
  • 02:58 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Michael Brown,
  • 03:00 I'm so thrilled to be able to sit down with you, my friend.
  • 03:02 Dr. Michael Brown: Always great to be with you, Jeff.
  • 03:04 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: It's been a number of years, hasn't it?
  • 03:05 Dr. Michael Brown: It has been.
  • 03:07 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Speaking of years and going back years,
  • 03:08 we're looking at Jeremiah.
  • 03:09 You did a commentary on Jeremiah.
  • 03:11 What led you to do that?
  • 03:12 Dr. Michael Brown: Well, for years,
  • 03:13 I had loved the prophetic burden of Jeremiah,
  • 03:16 and I had related on a certain level 'til you carry
  • 03:20 the pain of a burden.
  • 03:21 You see something's wrong in the situation around you,
  • 03:23 and your only outlet is really to the Lord.
  • 03:26 So, when I was asked to contribute a commentary to an
  • 03:30 Old Testament series, they were revising some older ones and
  • 03:33 rewriting, and brand-new ones were coming in.
  • 03:36 I put Jeremiah at the top of my list,
  • 03:38 and the editor said to me, "I had Jeremiah at the
  • 03:40 top of the list for you, as well.
  • 03:42 So, I virtually got to live with the prophet for several years,
  • 03:45 and it was extraordinary.
  • 03:47 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Well, you lived with him;
  • 03:48 and in a certain sense you live like him,
  • 03:49 at least in the sense you're very forthright,
  • 03:51 and direct, and passionate.
  • 03:53 So, I could see how you could relate to the character.
  • 03:56 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, and any of us that have a prophetic
  • 03:59 burden--not meaning that we're having visions and dreams about
  • 04:02 the future or writing books of the Bible,
  • 04:04 but we have that burden that something's
  • 04:06 wrong, and it needs to change.
  • 04:08 The message of repent is deep, deep in our hearts,
  • 04:11 and that word occurs over and over and over in Jeremiah,
  • 04:14 and it ties in with words of "Return, the exiles return."
  • 04:17 You repent, you return.
  • 04:19 When those things are real to you,
  • 04:21 and when you have a burden for your nation,
  • 04:23 it sometimes reduces you to tears.
  • 04:25 And a burden for the Jewish people,
  • 04:27 in ways you can relate to Jeremiah.
  • 04:29 And all of us, as God's people, Jesus tells us that when we bear
  • 04:33 reproach for the gospel, we're being treated the way the
  • 04:36 prophets were being treated.
  • 04:38 So, as followers of Yeshua, we swim against the tide.
  • 04:41 We go against the grain.
  • 04:42 In that sense, we can relate to Jeremiah.
  • 04:45 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yeah, and in that sense--and believe me,
  • 04:47 I don't want to give you a Hebrew lesson--for viewers that
  • 04:49 are watching, they don't know you.
  • 04:51 You know, for your Ph.D., 11 Semitic languages, correct?
  • 04:55 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, a bunch,
  • 04:56 dialects and different things.
  • 04:57 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: So, I don't want to fake it with you.
  • 04:59 My understanding is the word nevi,
  • 05:00 etymologically, for prophet, comes from a word meaning
  • 05:02 to bubble forth.
  • 05:03 And I liken it in the sense of someone drinks 7-Up,
  • 05:06 there's gas, there's something deep inside,
  • 05:09 and it needs to come out.
  • 05:10 You alighted upon that in Jeremiah's day.
  • 05:13 Today, do you think a lot of God's people have stuff in them?
  • 05:16 There's a word, there's a moment.
  • 05:17 We live in times today much like Jeremiah, correct?
  • 05:20 Dr. Michael Brown: So, what's really interesting in Jeremiah
  • 05:23 is that in the 20th chapter, he comes to a breaking point.
  • 05:26 Every so often, he'd come to a breaking point privately,
  • 05:28 never publicly, never flinched publicly,
  • 05:31 never backed down from a single word,
  • 05:32 but sometimes like, "God, this is enough.
  • 05:34 This is too much.
  • 05:35 It's too costly for me to bring this Word.
  • 05:38 Family turns to me, I get hit violently.
  • 05:40 I'm just trying to obey you. Everybody hates me."
  • 05:43 So, he says, "I decided," Jeremiah 20,
  • 05:45 "I'm just gonna keep quiet.
  • 05:47 I will not speak his Word anymore."
  • 05:49 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: He said he can't live that way.
  • 05:50 Dr. Michael Brown: Can't live like--he said,
  • 05:51 "Your Word was like fire in my bones."
  • 05:54 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Now, and to that point,
  • 05:55 he's noted as the "Weeping Prophet,"
  • 05:57 very effusive, emotive.
  • 05:59 We know more about him than other prophets 'cause there's a
  • 06:02 lot of self-disclosure in the way he speaks, correct?
  • 06:05 Dr. Michael Brown: Yes, so we have a lot of glimpses.
  • 06:07 We know far more about the person of Jeremiah than
  • 06:10 any other prophet.
  • 06:11 And a lot of the book is first person.
  • 06:13 Some of it's third person about him,
  • 06:15 but a lot of it is first person.
  • 06:17 And what would bring him to a breaking point,
  • 06:19 also, was the hard words he had to bring.
  • 06:21 For example, in Jeremiah 15, he's prophesying about the woman
  • 06:24 of seven that's gonna go, the mother of seven that's gonna
  • 06:27 die, and this one's gonna die.
  • 06:28 And it's like, "I didn't ask for this, Lord.
  • 06:30 I never pursued this. You pursued me."
  • 06:35 And you know what God says to him?
  • 06:37 He doesn't say, "Jeremiah, I understand."
  • 06:39 He says, "If you repent, I'll use you."
  • 06:41 He's like, "I don't want to be used."
  • 06:42 But God knew deep down in Jeremiah's heart,
  • 06:44 he really wanted to be.
  • 06:46 So, the pain that he expresses towards God,
  • 06:49 it shows us that as strong as he was publicly,
  • 06:52 he was a very sensitive man.
  • 06:54 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes, he was.
  • 06:55 Dr. Michael Brown: He wasn't one that just,
  • 06:56 "I don't care.
  • 06:58 I'm gonna bring these hard words."
  • 06:59 It broke his heart, which is telling us it's costly to
  • 07:03 carry the burden of the Lord.
  • 07:04 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: You know, as a teacher,
  • 07:06 I always want students, as a Bible professor,
  • 07:08 just to try and look at a text in its context.
  • 07:11 I'm really interested in the moment.
  • 07:12 It's hard to resist the temptation to read Jeremiah
  • 07:15 right into today; because truth be known,
  • 07:17 a lot of people are burdened,
  • 07:19 they're grieved, they're upset.
  • 07:20 There's a word they want to speak.
  • 07:22 It's harsh about culture, but they don't like it.
  • 07:24 What do you think?
  • 07:25 Dr. Michael Brown: So, Jeremiah tells us
  • 07:27 we must have courage.
  • 07:28 Jeremiah tells us we must obey.
  • 07:30 Jeremiah tells us that we lose our personhood,
  • 07:33 and value, and dignity when we compromise
  • 07:36 for the sake of convenience.
  • 07:38 It's what Jesus himself taught.
  • 07:39 "If you save your life, you lose it."
  • 07:42 You become a slave to the opinions of people.
  • 07:44 You become a slave to the times and the seasons,
  • 07:47 as opposed to being God's servant.
  • 07:49 So, the words of Jeremiah continue through all eternity.
  • 07:54 We read them, we study them as God's words.
  • 07:56 What about the words of the false prophets?
  • 07:58 What do we think about the ones who said,
  • 07:59 [speaking in Hebrew]
  • 08:01 All is well, all is well, peace, peace," when nothing is well,
  • 08:04 when there is no peace.
  • 08:05 Their names are despised.
  • 08:07 Hananiah, the false prophet, who dies.
  • 08:10 And Jeremiah even says, "The ones who prophesy peace and
  • 08:13 safety, they're the unusual ones.
  • 08:15 You know their words are true when they come to pass,
  • 08:17 because all the other prophets have predicted judgment," why?
  • 08:20 Because of the sin of the people.
  • 08:22 So, if we think we can just coast by,
  • 08:25 smiling, laughing, happy all the time,
  • 08:28 we don't have the heart of God.
  • 08:29 He does give us joy. He does give us peace.
  • 08:31 He does give us intimacy; but, boy,
  • 08:33 he wants us to carry a burden,
  • 08:35 and that means sharing his heart.
  • 08:36 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes, and there's a lot of happy,
  • 08:38 clappy, but we live in tough times,
  • 08:39 and we need to be able to speak to,
  • 08:41 for, and about it--not just to it, but through it.
  • 08:44 Now, to your point earlier, it is true,
  • 08:46 this weeping prophet, I mean, what makes the good news so good
  • 08:50 is that the bad news is so bad.
  • 08:51 I mean, he lived in tough times, but he saw over the horizon to
  • 08:54 better days coming, didn't he?
  • 08:55 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, so much of his book,
  • 08:57 most of his book is doom, judgment, gloom,
  • 09:00 but then there always are these words of encouragement.
  • 09:03 And then chapters 30 through 33 have been called
  • 09:06 "The Book of Consolation" because it's good news after
  • 09:09 good news, after good news being presented,
  • 09:12 and Jeremiah has four verses, Jeremiah 31,
  • 09:16 verses 31 to 34 in our English Bibles that prophesy this new
  • 09:20 covenant that God will make with the house of Israel and Judah.
  • 09:23 And Yeshua, at the last supper, says,
  • 09:24 "This is what I'm implementing through my death,
  • 09:27 through my blood."
  • 09:28 And then this is the longest single passage quoted
  • 09:31 in the New Testament.
  • 09:32 It's quoted in its entirety in the book of Hebrews.
  • 09:35 So, the one that brings the new covenant prophecy that Yeshua
  • 09:39 inaugurates with his death and resurrection
  • 09:42 is the weeping prophet.
  • 09:44 "Those who sow with tears reap with joy."
  • 09:47 And to the degree that we plant our seeds with tears of prayer
  • 09:51 and brokenness in intercession is to the degree that we will
  • 09:54 reap with great joy and satisfaction.
  • 09:59 Kirsten: Dr. Brown mentioned the burden Jeremiah had of the
  • 10:05 words that were in his belly, that had the fire that he had to
  • 10:10 get out.
  • 10:11 And I know you've taught the Bible for many years.
  • 10:14 You've brought the word many years on our program.
  • 10:18 Throughout all that time, is there something,
  • 10:21 a fire in your belly, yes, that you feel you have to get out?
  • 10:25 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes, but I'm a little different
  • 10:26 than Dr. Brown in that regard.
  • 10:28 He started a school called Fire School of Ministry.
  • 10:31 He is just passionate on steroids,
  • 10:34 and he's an evangelist that so happened to pick up a Ph.D.
  • 10:38 that includes 11 different languages.
  • 10:40 For me, the principal burden, as a Bible teacher is to be a
  • 10:45 Jewish studies professor.
  • 10:46 For me, I'm very much interested in looking at the Good News
  • 10:50 through the eyes of the Jews.
  • 10:51 And I'm not saying that 'cause I'm on the television set and a
  • 10:54 program that tells that kind of story,
  • 10:56 but that's what I've been all about in the classroom
  • 10:58 as a teacher.
  • 11:00 Kirsten: That's that fire in your belly
  • 11:01 that you just have to get out.
  • 11:03 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: I want to help Jewish people come to know
  • 11:04 Jesus, and I want to help Jesus people come to know Jews.
  • 11:08 That burns.
  • 11:09 Kirsten: Yes, and I love that there's something inside that
  • 11:11 has to come out.
  • 11:13 David: Yes, right now let's go back to our interview.
  • 11:16 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: So, you're a guy,
  • 11:17 you had the opportunity to write on a number of things,
  • 11:20 and you have written on a number of things on your websites there
  • 11:23 on the air, and people can learn about "Ask Dr. Michael Brown,"
  • 11:27 and I'm asking Dr. Michael Brown.
  • 11:30 You stepped into Jeremiah.
  • 11:31 You could relate to him personally,
  • 11:33 correct, as a human being, the passion,
  • 11:35 the fire of God, the difficulties?
  • 11:37 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, and reading Jeremiah 23,
  • 11:40 beginning in verse 9, it's the oracle to the false prophets.
  • 11:43 It just says,
  • 11:44 [speaking in Hebrew]
  • 11:46 to the prophets, but it means to the false prophets,
  • 11:47 and Jeremiah is staggered.
  • 11:49 He's staggering around like a drunken man,
  • 11:52 because he's so overwhelmed by the holy words of God,
  • 11:55 when he sees what the false prophets are doing and how they
  • 11:58 are destroying the nation.
  • 12:00 And I remember reading that decades ago in Hebrew on my
  • 12:03 knees, and literally being staggered by the words,
  • 12:06 being completely overcome by the burden of the Lord.
  • 12:10 So, there was something. Now, I'm not a Jeremiah.
  • 12:12 I'm not a prophet like he was, but there's something that I've
  • 12:15 identified with.
  • 12:16 And then sometimes even if you have friends,
  • 12:19 family around you,
  • 12:20 you feel like you're the only one with a message.
  • 12:22 You know you're not.
  • 12:23 You know God has a family and burden and body out there,
  • 12:26 but sometimes the burden's so intense,
  • 12:28 it feels like no one else sees it,
  • 12:29 no one else feels it, and that sensitivity where God speaks,
  • 12:34 Jeremiah speaks.
  • 12:35 It goes back and forth, and it's all in the first person.
  • 12:38 As my wife Nancy said when I was writing the commentary,
  • 12:40 talking about it, she said, "Sometimes you can't tell where
  • 12:43 God ends and the prophet begins and vice versa."
  • 12:46 That's how it is with us in the Lord,
  • 12:47 that we're one with him.
  • 12:49 We identify with him.
  • 12:50 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: You know, it seems, for me, and, you know,
  • 12:54 opting to jump in and throw my hat in the ring to do
  • 12:56 the Jeremiah story for a television program--
  • 12:59 and by the way, thank you for participating with me when we
  • 13:01 went through those little vignettes,
  • 13:03 and we went through the series earlier.
  • 13:04 This is just the wrap on it.
  • 13:06 But part of the genesis for me is he seemed like so much a man
  • 13:10 for our times, and the times' shifting political currents.
  • 13:14 Where are you gonna stand? Standing up for God's Word.
  • 13:18 You know, kind of staving off the political correctness to
  • 13:21 keep your integrity in a spiritual sense.
  • 13:24 It seem so much the kind of pressures that we're all feeling
  • 13:27 today, those of us that have the Lord in us,
  • 13:29 that want the Lord to shine through us.
  • 13:31 Dr. Michael Brown: He lived in a very real
  • 13:32 spiritual cancel culture.
  • 13:34 Didn't have the same media issues then,
  • 13:36 but people were trying to silence him.
  • 13:38 They did not like what he had to say.
  • 13:41 Out of the gate, when God called him,
  • 13:44 he'll well be a, you know, teenager when he's called.
  • 13:46 He'll be 15, 16 years old. We don't know the exact age.
  • 13:48 You may have had a different figure on it.
  • 13:50 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: I never put a figure on it.
  • 13:52 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, he's just a young guy.
  • 13:53 He's a na'ar in Hebrew.
  • 13:54 And he said, "I don't even know how to speak."
  • 13:56 And you've got the senior prophets out there.
  • 13:58 You've got the wise men.
  • 13:59 You've got the priests.
  • 14:01 You've got the elders, and now he's gonna prophesy
  • 14:05 contrary to what they're all saying.
  • 14:06 They're all gonna be against--
  • 14:07 who in the world do you think you are?
  • 14:09 But God put his words in his mouth.
  • 14:12 And even his own family turned against him.
  • 14:14 That's another breaking point, end of Jeremiah 11,
  • 14:17 and that's when he complains to God early in Jeremiah 12.
  • 14:20 We soften it in our translations,
  • 14:21 but he's basically saying, "I don't like the way
  • 14:23 you run your universe, God.
  • 14:24 I'm gonna bring charges against you."
  • 14:26 And God's response to him is, "Hey,
  • 14:28 Jeremiah, you're getting worn out running with the footmen.
  • 14:30 What are you gonna do with the horsemen?
  • 14:32 You can't take it in your home city of Anathoth,
  • 14:34 a little, small town.
  • 14:35 What are you gonna do in Jerusalem?"
  • 14:37 And then God comforts him and encourages him.
  • 14:39 But he's up against, "Who are you to speak?"
  • 14:43 That's where we find ourselves today.
  • 14:45 "Just be quiet and everything will be fine.
  • 14:48 Just conform to the norm and bow to the gods of this age,
  • 14:52 and life will go well for you."
  • 14:54 That's the lie of Satan that every generation hears.
  • 14:58 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: A lot of bad stuff worked its way into
  • 15:00 Judean culture, idol worship being one.
  • 15:02 You know, some of these kings hopped in bed with the devil,
  • 15:05 and Jeremiah's world is reaping what they sowed, correct?
  • 15:09 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, idolatry was really the root,
  • 15:11 turning away from the true God and worshiping false gods,
  • 15:14 and everything else flowed out of that sexual immorality,
  • 15:16 injustice, and child sacrifice.
  • 15:18 It all flowed out of idolatry.
  • 15:20 We said, "We're not having that today.
  • 15:21 We're not bowing down to gods of wood and stone."
  • 15:25 Well, we have every kind of idol,
  • 15:27 everything else that we give our attention to,
  • 15:29 whether it's our addiction to sports,
  • 15:32 whether it's our obsession with entertainment,
  • 15:35 whether it's looking to people, whether it's--Paul says that
  • 15:38 greed is idolatry.
  • 15:40 So, idolatry is still here in so many different forms.
  • 15:43 Anything that takes the worship, and attention,
  • 15:46 and adoration, and energy that should be given over to God and
  • 15:50 gives it over to something else, that's idolatry.
  • 15:53 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Well, if I understand you correctly,
  • 15:54 you're saying, "Okay, look, you watch your football game;
  • 15:58 but if it's happening during church, record it,
  • 16:00 go to church, and watch it later.
  • 16:01 Don't put it first."
  • 16:03 Dr. Michael Brown: Or how about this?
  • 16:04 Be more grieved over the fact that your neighbor is lost and
  • 16:09 that your grandson is a drug addict,
  • 16:12 be more grieved over
  • 16:13 that than the fact that your team lost yesterday.
  • 16:16 If you can spend hours and hours and hours every single day
  • 16:20 playing video games and don't read your Bible in a week,
  • 16:23 something is out of order.
  • 16:24 Something needs to shift.
  • 16:26 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: And you've been gracious.
  • 16:27 It's not just video games.
  • 16:29 If you look at the hours people spend with their little cell
  • 16:31 phones, but don't have time to read a scripture, it really is--
  • 16:34 Dr. Michael Brown: Exactly, I have time to respond to every
  • 16:36 text, but I don't have time to pray or memorize
  • 16:39 a scripture verse.
  • 16:40 Something's out of order. Idolatry can be subtle.
  • 16:43 Idolatry can be overt.
  • 16:44 Either way, what's capturing our hearts?
  • 16:47 That's the God we worship.
  • 16:49 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Well, the theologian Michael Brown says
  • 16:50 answer your texts, but make sure you respond
  • 16:53 to biblical text, amen?
  • 16:54 Dr. Michael Brown: I love it.
  • 16:57 Kirsten: I trust that you are all enjoying this extra bonus
  • 17:01 program, this interview with Dr. Michael Brown,
  • 17:04 as much as we are.
  • 17:05 David: We love it, yes.
  • 17:06 Kirsten: He is so good. He's very insightful.
  • 17:08 And the way we bring it to you is through faithful donations
  • 17:12 of all our viewers.
  • 17:13 So, in Hebrew they say, "Todah," or "Todah rabah,"
  • 17:17 which means "Thank you very much."
  • 17:18 You are making all of this possible.
  • 17:21 David: Stay with us, we'll be right back.
  • 17:24 Female announcer: For many, a trip to the Holy Land is the
  • 17:27 dream of a lifetime.
  • 17:29 Where else can you go see the scriptures come alive,
  • 17:32 as you visit the sites where so many biblical events happened.
  • 17:38 We invite you to come on a Zola tour in the spring or the fall,
  • 17:42 as we explore Israel and Petra.
  • 17:44 Reserve your dream of a lifetime.
  • 17:47 Contact us for more information.
  • 17:50 ♪♪♪
  • 17:55 David: We've enjoyed bringing you this last series
  • 17:57 all about Jeremiah.
  • 17:59 If you've missed any of the programs,
  • 18:00 there's a great way that you can go back and find
  • 18:03 these programs online.
  • 18:05 Kirsten: Right, we are literally all over social media.
  • 18:08 Do @.
  • 18:10 It's a fancy symbol.
  • 18:11 It's probably right below us right now.
  • 18:13 @OurJewishRoots.
  • 18:15 You can go on our ministry website,
  • 18:17 levitt.com or levitt.tv.
  • 18:19 I know that's a lot of information.
  • 18:21 But, gosh, they can watch this whole series,
  • 18:24 extra interviews.
  • 18:25 We have some special things that we just put on social media just
  • 18:29 for you.
  • 18:31 David: Right now, let's go back to our interview.
  • 18:34 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: I always try and take pains to look at
  • 18:36 the nuances in the literature that give the background to it.
  • 18:39 And it's a precarious, changing world.
  • 18:42 The climate is very tempestuous in Jeremiah's day,
  • 18:46 much like our own, correct?
  • 18:48 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, everything was up for grabs.
  • 18:50 It was about 100 years earlier that Assyria crushed the
  • 18:53 northern tribes of Israel and almost took out Judah.
  • 18:57 God miraculously intervened for Hezekiah.
  • 19:00 It's not all that long later--basically,
  • 19:03 that happens in 722 BC, and Jeremiah begins
  • 19:06 to prophesy in 627 BC.
  • 19:09 So, it's not even 100 years, and now there's the new threat from
  • 19:12 Babylon, and Jeremiah is told, out of the gate,
  • 19:15 "Your nation's going down."
  • 19:17 There's this sense today that if we don't have great revival in
  • 19:21 America, our nation may implode from within,
  • 19:24 or we may fall to people from another--there's this sense of
  • 19:27 urgency, a life and death moment,
  • 19:29 and we're really in it.
  • 19:31 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Let's unpack that a little,
  • 19:32 because people are living with a fear--and a lot of fear is
  • 19:36 unreasonable, but this isn't an unreasonable fear.
  • 19:40 People are thinking, "Goodness, our nation is dissipating,
  • 19:44 it's evaporating, its moral fabric is disintegrating,
  • 19:48 and people fear for that.
  • 19:50 Jeremiah did much the same, didn't he?
  • 19:52 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, and one of the great issues of our
  • 19:53 day is abortion.
  • 19:55 One of the great issues of Jeremiah's day is the
  • 19:58 slaughtering of babies, sacrificing them to Molech.
  • 20:01 You read about it in Jeremiah 7 and Jeremiah 19.
  • 20:05 And that one thing, which happened a lot under the
  • 20:09 leadership of Manasseh--
  • 20:11 55 years, king of Judah.
  • 20:13 Billy Graham once called him the most wicked man that ever lived,
  • 20:16 and certainly was a terrible sinner that found repentance at
  • 20:20 the end of his life, but his sins were so great that in
  • 20:23 Jeremiah 15 God says, "Even though I forgave him,
  • 20:26 I can't forgive the nation for all the bloodshed."
  • 20:29 It is to the sins that were committed under him were such,
  • 20:32 the shedding of innocent blood, this is now for living babies
  • 20:36 that were burned alive and offered to Molech.
  • 20:41 God said, "That sin alone, I'm going to destroy the nation."
  • 20:45 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: But is there any good news
  • 20:46 from ancient Jews?
  • 20:47 I mean, Jeremiah lived in a world--again,
  • 20:50 different circumstances,
  • 20:52 but not unlike it at the emotional level.
  • 20:54 His world was in a vice, but he had advice for the world,
  • 20:59 didn't he?
  • 21:00 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, the first reality is for every one
  • 21:02 of us, we can take refuge in God.
  • 21:05 For every one of us, personally, we can have such a rock-solid
  • 21:08 relationship with him.
  • 21:10 scripture says the righteous will not be shaken.
  • 21:12 We don't have to be shaken by what's happening around us.
  • 21:15 Yeshua says that "When all these things are happening,
  • 21:18 and it's getting really bad, even worse than now,
  • 21:21 and you know that my return is near,
  • 21:23 people are having heart attacks for fear of what's coming,
  • 21:26 you should be rejoicing, because I'm coming back."
  • 21:30 That's the reality.
  • 21:31 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Let me pivot and ask you about just not
  • 21:33 being shaken.
  • 21:35 You had mentioned earlier in the interview,
  • 21:38 in the conversation about how, you know,
  • 21:40 Jeremiah had experienced trouble with his own family.
  • 21:43 Some of us, you know, we raise kids,
  • 21:45 and we're shaken to the core because of the abandonment,
  • 21:49 the disrespect, the disintegration of the family.
  • 21:53 I suspect people that are watching--I know in my age
  • 21:56 bracket, when I talk to parents and grandparents,
  • 22:00 they're upset because of the irreverence and disrespect.
  • 22:03 How can we not be shaken in a world where we think that's what
  • 22:06 we love is being--is shaking us?
  • 22:09 Dr. Michael Brown: It does shake us, initially, just as Jeremiah
  • 22:12 was shaken, and it is shocking to see somehow things
  • 22:16 have just turned upside down.
  • 22:18 And what used to be normal is abnormal,
  • 22:20 and what used to be expected is now exceptional,
  • 22:23 and we're seeing things we've never seen before,
  • 22:26 dealing with things we've never had to deal with before.
  • 22:28 But the lesson from Jeremiah is you do get shaken,
  • 22:31 which drives you deeper in God.
  • 22:33 It drives you to this place of desperation.
  • 22:36 Because yesterday's methods aren't cutting it.
  • 22:39 We have to find something new in God,
  • 22:41 and that's why Jeremiah made it to the end.
  • 22:44 That's why he never cracked. That's why he never backslid.
  • 22:46 That's why he never did anything that they could ever point their
  • 22:49 finger at and find him guilty.
  • 22:51 God sustained him.
  • 22:52 The same God who sustained Jeremiah,
  • 22:55 if we run to him and put all our trust in him,
  • 22:58 and our fear, and our pain, and our anxiety,
  • 23:01 and really throw ourselves on him like Jeremiah did,
  • 23:04 we will find the same comfort, hope,
  • 23:07 strength to endure, and we will not be shaken.
  • 23:09 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: You know, I think you're right.
  • 23:10 There's this old verses that--old,
  • 23:13 I mean all verses are old, but they used to be represented to
  • 23:17 audience more so, you know.
  • 23:18 "I know that my Redeemer lives,
  • 23:20 and at last he will stand upon the earth."
  • 23:22 Even if you don't have the answer,
  • 23:24 I know God is the answer.
  • 23:25 And, you know, I'm just gonna press through the turbulence of
  • 23:28 trying times and trust in him.
  • 23:30 Jeremiah certainly had to do that,
  • 23:32 and he needed to do it in his day.
  • 23:34 We've gotta do it in ours, correct?
  • 23:35 Dr. Michael Brown: Yeah, if Jeremiah were speaking to us,
  • 23:38 as believers, as those who really want to follow him,
  • 23:41 I believe he would look at us and say,
  • 23:43 "God is faithful, God is true.
  • 23:46 Every word he promised will come to pass.
  • 23:49 You'll go through dark times; but trust me,
  • 23:51 the light will prevail."
  • 23:53 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Amen.
  • 23:55 Kirsten: That is a fantastic way to wrap up
  • 23:58 our whole series on Jeremiah.
  • 24:01 I don't know why, you guys, I always get a little sad at the
  • 24:04 end of another series.
  • 24:06 It's like we lived with these people,
  • 24:08 we walked with Jeremiah, and now it's kind of done, sad.
  • 24:12 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: You know, to that point--and by the way,
  • 24:14 it's not scripted about living with these people.
  • 24:17 I know, for me, before I ever do a series,
  • 24:21 I really try and climb into their world.
  • 24:23 I want to be there, I want to feel it.
  • 24:25 Of course, it's easier to do it when you're actually going to
  • 24:26 the place, to Israel, but I want to climb in their heads and hear
  • 24:31 their words and feel their thoughts and let what emerges,
  • 24:35 emerge out of that.
  • 24:37 Kirsten: You picked--and we've talked about why you
  • 24:40 might've picked Jeremiah--out of the whole Bible,
  • 24:44 why was that the person that you picked out and said,
  • 24:47 "It's time for his story to be told on our program."
  • 24:49 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Because when my producer,
  • 24:50 when our producer, Ken Berg, said,
  • 24:52 "Let's do Isaiah," I said, "We already did it.
  • 24:54 Let's do Jeremiah."
  • 24:56 I mean, any pick of the Bible is good.
  • 25:00 It's good, but I just really thought that it's a message for
  • 25:05 the moment, to tell you the truth.
  • 25:08 And I'm so vexed.
  • 25:10 Jeremiah was vexed when he considered the state of affairs
  • 25:14 in his own culture.
  • 25:16 And, personally, I'm distressed when I look at the news.
  • 25:21 You know, it really bothers me deeply.
  • 25:24 My wife, Barry, doesn't want to look at it.
  • 25:26 I look at it and want to throw up.
  • 25:28 Jeremiah had those same thoughts.
  • 25:31 David: There was a lot of darkness back in that day that
  • 25:33 we've seen, this whole series.
  • 25:35 There's a lot of darkness in our world today,
  • 25:38 but we're called to be his light and hope for the world.
  • 25:41 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes.
  • 25:42 You've been doing it your whole life in ministry,
  • 25:45 as a minster of music, correct?
  • 25:47 David: Easy to get discouraged,
  • 25:48 but he's called all of us to be his light.
  • 25:51 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: I mean, you know people come to church,
  • 25:53 and they carry the burdens, and you want to connect to them and
  • 25:57 take them to somewhere else, you know.
  • 26:00 Kirsten: I was gonna say, jumping on that,
  • 26:01 that's what you do.
  • 26:03 We've talked about Jeremiah's fire in his belly,
  • 26:06 what he had to get out, and I think--and I'm just speaking as
  • 26:09 your wife, right--I'm your wife--that you have such a
  • 26:12 burning passion for people to worship at all ages,
  • 26:16 and we all have a different fire and words that the Lord puts in
  • 26:21 us that we have to get out.
  • 26:22 I think that's part of our calling
  • 26:24 and our mission on this earth.
  • 26:26 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Right, and it manifests differently,
  • 26:27 because we have different personalities,
  • 26:29 but that's not the point.
  • 26:30 Michael Brown is a frustrated evangelist that so
  • 26:34 happened to get a Ph.D.
  • 26:35 You know, he has all that passion,
  • 26:37 and it manifests in the way that he communicates,
  • 26:40 you know.
  • 26:41 And David--I mean, we all have different personalities.
  • 26:44 I'm a little more intense, and I think that you're more of a
  • 26:47 staid, respectable individual, you know,
  • 26:50 but your passion propelled you into the Lord's work,
  • 26:54 and you can light up a fire when you engage a community and lift
  • 26:59 them up in song.
  • 27:00 David: I try. Jeremiah wept a lot.
  • 27:03 I feel like I do that once in a while when I see people that
  • 27:07 aren't engaging in that hope.
  • 27:09 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: You really, I mean, you see it
  • 27:10 and feel it there, and you're trying to
  • 27:13 take them to another place.
  • 27:14 You want them to see and experience something.
  • 27:16 David: We are the light of the world.
  • 27:18 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Yes, we are.
  • 27:19 And you, Jeremiah, Michael Brown,
  • 27:23 me, we, we're all in the same boat.
  • 27:25 Let's lift him up.
  • 27:27 Kirsten: And I'm jumping in, because I want to say thank you
  • 27:30 for your insight, your wisdom to bring Jeremiah's
  • 27:33 word to "Our Jewish Roots."
  • 27:35 We're thankful for you.
  • 27:36 Dr. Jeffrey Seif: Well, you're kind to do it.
  • 27:37 And I wouldn't be bringing it to you if you didn't enable
  • 27:40 us, and thank you so much.
  • 27:41 And y'all come back now, here? We'll see you next week.
  • 27:44 Until then, sha'alu shalom Yerushalayim.
  • 27:47 Kirsten: Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
  • 27:53 ♪♪♪
  • 27:59 ♪♪♪
  • 28:09 ♪♪♪
  • 28:19 ♪♪♪

Episodes in this series

  1. Young Man’s Visions
  2. Sounding the Alarm
  3. Corruption and Closed Minds
  4. Faith Abandoned and Reimagined
  5. No Escape
  6. Promises Made
  7. Ruin and Renewal
  8. Hope and a Future
  9. Jeremiah in Retrospect

Guest organizations and links